Resooney:Yernish: Difference between revisions
→Ennym ny chengaghyn: Freggyrt da'n feysht |
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::It can and has been said, as per the tag above by Eog2016, that the Irish, Scots and Manx Gaelic languages are the one and same language that differ from each other due to political considerations. Indeed, the Scots Gaelic language of Aran <u>is</u> closer to the Gaelic of Antrim than to the Gaelic of the Hebrides. However, while Scots Gaelic and Irish may be said to be very close together grammatically and orthographically, the language of the Isle of Man has altered so radically as to render it quite different from the other two (compare Swedish to Norwegian and Danish - the same could and has been said about these three languages, calling them Scandinavian. Danish and Norwegian orthography remains quite close to this day, while Swedish has altered significantly. However, the majority refer to them by their geopolitically correct names). The Manx language has lost most of the verbal constructions found in Irish and Scots Gaelic (in Manx there is a past tense, albeit a vanishing one - in Manx there is a tendency to use the past tense of the verb "to do", ''ren'', followed by the infinitive of the verb in question, there is only one present tense in Manx of the verb "to be", ''ta'', while the future tense is for the most part constructed by the future tense of the verb "to be", ''nee'' followed by the infinitive of the verb in question). In Manx there is a difference, just like in the other Gaelic languages between the masculine and feminine of nouns, but this is dying out with a tendency to treat all nouns as masculine. This is apparent in the system of initial consonontal mutation. Where Manx differs from the other two is in respect to the genitive case. This case is in the process of dying out in Manx, even if some including myself have a preference for trying to maintain it as best we can. Currently, according to many in the movement there is no longer a genitive case. We can see this if we look at the construction in English of "Bundesrepublik Deutschland". In English this is rendered as the Federal Republic of Germany. In Irish this is rendered as ''Poblacht Chonastach na Gearmáine'', in Scots Gaelic it is rendered as ''Poblachd Chaidreachail na Gearmailt'', but in Manx it is rendered as ''Pobblaght Chonastagh y Ghermaan'' according to CnyG, which would be spelt as ''Poblacht Chonastach a' Ghearmáin'' if an Irish Gaelic orthography was applied. This shows how there is no longer a differentiation between masculine and feminine. The spelling of Manx, while imposed by a foreigner, enjoys large popularity amongst speakers of Manx so is hardly likely to change. Even the vocabulary of the language can be quite different to the other Gaelic languages, with large amounts of borrowings from Norse, French and English not seen in the other Gaelic languages. Compare ''vondeish'' meaning profit, benefit etc. from ''advantage'' in French, ''waiteil'' from ''wait'' in English meaning attendance, and ''vaal'' from ''vǫll'' in Norse meaning area, field, ground etc. (compare Tinvaal). In short, Manx has a differing vocabulary (whether it is different words, alternative meanings, or just simply different pronunciations), a different grammatical structure, a different verbal structure, a radically different orthography, as well as a different history and culture to the other Gaelic languages. While there is much to share, there is also a lot of differences, more so than exists between Danish and Norwegian. In fact probably more so than exists between Russian and Ukrainian! --[[Ymmydeyr:MacTire02|MacTire02]] 00:33, 8 Mee Houney 2009 (UTC) |
::It can and has been said, as per the tag above by Eog2016, that the Irish, Scots and Manx Gaelic languages are the one and same language that differ from each other due to political considerations. Indeed, the Scots Gaelic language of Aran <u>is</u> closer to the Gaelic of Antrim than to the Gaelic of the Hebrides. However, while Scots Gaelic and Irish may be said to be very close together grammatically and orthographically, the language of the Isle of Man has altered so radically as to render it quite different from the other two (compare Swedish to Norwegian and Danish - the same could and has been said about these three languages, calling them Scandinavian. Danish and Norwegian orthography remains quite close to this day, while Swedish has altered significantly. However, the majority refer to them by their geopolitically correct names). The Manx language has lost most of the verbal constructions found in Irish and Scots Gaelic (in Manx there is a past tense, albeit a vanishing one - in Manx there is a tendency to use the past tense of the verb "to do", ''ren'', followed by the infinitive of the verb in question, there is only one present tense in Manx of the verb "to be", ''ta'', while the future tense is for the most part constructed by the future tense of the verb "to be", ''nee'' followed by the infinitive of the verb in question). In Manx there is a difference, just like in the other Gaelic languages between the masculine and feminine of nouns, but this is dying out with a tendency to treat all nouns as masculine. This is apparent in the system of initial consonontal mutation. Where Manx differs from the other two is in respect to the genitive case. This case is in the process of dying out in Manx, even if some including myself have a preference for trying to maintain it as best we can. Currently, according to many in the movement there is no longer a genitive case. We can see this if we look at the construction in English of "Bundesrepublik Deutschland". In English this is rendered as the Federal Republic of Germany. In Irish this is rendered as ''Poblacht Chonastach na Gearmáine'', in Scots Gaelic it is rendered as ''Poblachd Chaidreachail na Gearmailt'', but in Manx it is rendered as ''Pobblaght Chonastagh y Ghermaan'' according to CnyG, which would be spelt as ''Poblacht Chonastach a' Ghearmáin'' if an Irish Gaelic orthography was applied. This shows how there is no longer a differentiation between masculine and feminine. The spelling of Manx, while imposed by a foreigner, enjoys large popularity amongst speakers of Manx so is hardly likely to change. Even the vocabulary of the language can be quite different to the other Gaelic languages, with large amounts of borrowings from Norse, French and English not seen in the other Gaelic languages. Compare ''vondeish'' meaning profit, benefit etc. from ''advantage'' in French, ''waiteil'' from ''wait'' in English meaning attendance, and ''vaal'' from ''vǫll'' in Norse meaning area, field, ground etc. (compare Tinvaal). In short, Manx has a differing vocabulary (whether it is different words, alternative meanings, or just simply different pronunciations), a different grammatical structure, a different verbal structure, a radically different orthography, as well as a different history and culture to the other Gaelic languages. While there is much to share, there is also a lot of differences, more so than exists between Danish and Norwegian. In fact probably more so than exists between Russian and Ukrainian! --[[Ymmydeyr:MacTire02|MacTire02]] 00:33, 8 Mee Houney 2009 (UTC) |
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::As an aside to personal opinions, the idea behind Wikipedia is to create an online encyclopaedia anyone can edit. But the clue is in the word encyclopaedia. It is meant to be representative of current usage. We may come to a point at some time in the future where all three Gaelic languages are treated as one and the same language but with dialectal differences. For now though, this is not the case. So while the majority of people, be they Manx, Irish, Scottish, or whatever, agree on the fact that the three are different languages, and while there are differing terms coined for each of the languages in their own vernaculars, then this is what should be represented. Wikipedia is about providing information, not conjecture, opinion, revisionism etc. T'eh shen jerrey lesh my resoonaght mychione enmyn er ny chengaghyn Gaelgagh. Ta mee hene credjal dy vel jarroo-raa yn Unnaneys Oarpagh ny yarroo-raa share da ny Gaeil - t'eh shen Unnaneaght ayns Neuchaslid. Tree chengaghyn, tree cultooryn, tree shennaghyssyn, tree cheeraghyn, agh un ghoo. Myrane lesh cullee Vannin, y tree cassyn! --[[Ymmydeyr:MacTire02|MacTire02]] 00:48, 8 Mee Houney 2009 (UTC) |
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Aavriwnys veih 00:48, 8 Mee Houney 2009
Foirm eile is ea an t-ainm 'Yernish' ar 'Oirish' is dócha!
Yernish is the Manx for An Ghaeilge. Oirish must be a slang word, and, as it is in English, has NO place in the Manx language wikipedia. Also, as this is the Manx language wikipedia please use only Yn Ghaelg or English - no other language please. We have contributors here from locations other than the British Isles who do not know how to read or understand Irish. MacTire02 10:54, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
Ennym ny chengaghyn Ind-Oarpagh
Un phoynt fo'n ennym Indo-European. Rere mannin.info she Ind-Europagh yn ennym kiart. Agh, share lhiam yn ennym Ind-Oarpagh. Rere Coonseil ny Gaelgey she yn Oarpey yn ennym ta currit er Europe. Smooinaghtyn?? --MacTire02 21:17, 8 Jerrey Souree 2008 (UTC)
Ennym ny chengaghyn
"Cibé rud a chreideann an mhuinntir a labhrann ar "Gaeilge agus Gàidhlig", agus a bíos in amannaí ag deánamh "aistriúcháin" eadarthu, níor bh'é meon na nGael ariamh gur teangthacha difriúla iad an Ghaedhilg in Éirinn agus in Albain. Teangaidh amháin a d'ainmnigheadh siad-san. "Gaoluinn" a bheireadh an Muimhneach uirthi, agus labhaireadh sé ar "Ghaoluinn na hAlban". "Gàidhlig" a bheireadh an t-Albanach uirthi agus labhaireadh sé ar "Ghàidhlig Éireannach"". "Sin an dearcadh céanna atá i bhFoclóir Uí Dhónaill: "Gaeilge na hAlban" atá aige. Agus "Gaeilge Mhanann," le cois "An Mhanainnís". Níl a leithéid de fhocal agus "Gàidhlig" i nGaedhilg na hÉireann, ná gnaithe leis. Níl gnaithe le níos mó ná leagan amháin de ainm na teangtha i bpíosa scríbhneoreachta ar bith nach bhfuil dá scríobhadh d'aonturas i meascán de chanamhaintí. Más mór ár meas ar Ó Dónaill de ghnáthach, is iongantach an leisc atá orainn géilleadh dó ins an phoinnte seo." ( Tag: http://web.archive.org/web/20040818201858/www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/~oduibhin/cruinneas/gaedhilg.htm)
- See MacTire's comment above: please restrict yourself to Manx or English on this wiki. Not all contributors (including me) can understand much or any Irish. At the very least, as this seems to be a citation, please explain in Manx or English what it is supposed to say and why you have added it. -- Shimmin Beg 18:14, 7 Mee Houney 2009 (UTC)
- ==Ennym ny chengaghyn==
"Cibé rud a chreideann an mhuinntir a labhrann ar "Gaeilge agus Gàidhlig", agus a bíos in amannaí ag deánamh "aistriúcháin" eadarthu, níor bh'é meon na nGael ariamh gur teangthacha difriúla iad an Ghaedhilg in Éirinn agus in Albain. Whatever the beliefs of the people that speak of "Gaeilge and Gàidhlig" , and who occassionaly make "translations" between them, it was not ever the belief of the Gael that Irish Gaelic and Scottish Gaelic are different languages.
Teangaidh amháin a d'ainmnigheadh siad-san. They would have called the language but one name. "Gaoluinn" a bheireadh an Muimhneach uirthi, agus labhaireadh sé ar "Ghaoluinn na hAlban". The Munster person would call the language "Gaoluinn", and would speak of "Ghaoluinn na hAlban".
"Gàidhlig" a bheireadh an t-Albanach uirthi agus labhaireadh sé ar "Ghàidhlig Éireannach"". The Scottish person would call the language "Gàidhlig", and would speak of "Ghàidhlig Éireannach".
"Sin an dearcadh céanna atá i bhFoclóir Uí Dhónaill: "Gaeilge na hAlban" atá aige. That is the same view that is found in Foclóir Uí Dhónaill: he uses "Gaeilge na hAlban".
Agus "Gaeilge Mhanann," le cois "An Mhanainnís". And "Gaeilge Mhanann", alongside "An Mhanainnís".
Níl a leithéid de fhocal agus "Gàidhlig" i nGaedhilg na hÉireann, ná gnaithe leis. There is no such word as "Gàidhlig" in Irish Gaelic, or use for such.
Níl gnaithe le níos mó ná leagan amháin de ainm na teangtha i bpíosa scríbhneoreachta ar bith nach bhfuil dá scríobhadh d'aonturas i meascán de chanamhaintí. There is no use for more than one form of name for the language in any writing that is not deliberately intended to be in a plurality of dialects.
Más mór ár meas ar Ó Dónaill de ghnáthach, is iongantach an leisc atá orainn géilleadh dó ins an phoinnte seo." Given our usually great respect for Ó Dónaill, great is our excuse for agreeing with him in this matter.( Tag: Ref:http://web.archive.org/web/20040818201858/www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/~oduibhin/cruinneas/gaedhilg.htm)Eog2016 00:05, 8 Mee Houney 2009 (UTC)
- It can and has been said, as per the tag above by Eog2016, that the Irish, Scots and Manx Gaelic languages are the one and same language that differ from each other due to political considerations. Indeed, the Scots Gaelic language of Aran is closer to the Gaelic of Antrim than to the Gaelic of the Hebrides. However, while Scots Gaelic and Irish may be said to be very close together grammatically and orthographically, the language of the Isle of Man has altered so radically as to render it quite different from the other two (compare Swedish to Norwegian and Danish - the same could and has been said about these three languages, calling them Scandinavian. Danish and Norwegian orthography remains quite close to this day, while Swedish has altered significantly. However, the majority refer to them by their geopolitically correct names). The Manx language has lost most of the verbal constructions found in Irish and Scots Gaelic (in Manx there is a past tense, albeit a vanishing one - in Manx there is a tendency to use the past tense of the verb "to do", ren, followed by the infinitive of the verb in question, there is only one present tense in Manx of the verb "to be", ta, while the future tense is for the most part constructed by the future tense of the verb "to be", nee followed by the infinitive of the verb in question). In Manx there is a difference, just like in the other Gaelic languages between the masculine and feminine of nouns, but this is dying out with a tendency to treat all nouns as masculine. This is apparent in the system of initial consonontal mutation. Where Manx differs from the other two is in respect to the genitive case. This case is in the process of dying out in Manx, even if some including myself have a preference for trying to maintain it as best we can. Currently, according to many in the movement there is no longer a genitive case. We can see this if we look at the construction in English of "Bundesrepublik Deutschland". In English this is rendered as the Federal Republic of Germany. In Irish this is rendered as Poblacht Chonastach na Gearmáine, in Scots Gaelic it is rendered as Poblachd Chaidreachail na Gearmailt, but in Manx it is rendered as Pobblaght Chonastagh y Ghermaan according to CnyG, which would be spelt as Poblacht Chonastach a' Ghearmáin if an Irish Gaelic orthography was applied. This shows how there is no longer a differentiation between masculine and feminine. The spelling of Manx, while imposed by a foreigner, enjoys large popularity amongst speakers of Manx so is hardly likely to change. Even the vocabulary of the language can be quite different to the other Gaelic languages, with large amounts of borrowings from Norse, French and English not seen in the other Gaelic languages. Compare vondeish meaning profit, benefit etc. from advantage in French, waiteil from wait in English meaning attendance, and vaal from vǫll in Norse meaning area, field, ground etc. (compare Tinvaal). In short, Manx has a differing vocabulary (whether it is different words, alternative meanings, or just simply different pronunciations), a different grammatical structure, a different verbal structure, a radically different orthography, as well as a different history and culture to the other Gaelic languages. While there is much to share, there is also a lot of differences, more so than exists between Danish and Norwegian. In fact probably more so than exists between Russian and Ukrainian! --MacTire02 00:33, 8 Mee Houney 2009 (UTC)
- As an aside to personal opinions, the idea behind Wikipedia is to create an online encyclopaedia anyone can edit. But the clue is in the word encyclopaedia. It is meant to be representative of current usage. We may come to a point at some time in the future where all three Gaelic languages are treated as one and the same language but with dialectal differences. For now though, this is not the case. So while the majority of people, be they Manx, Irish, Scottish, or whatever, agree on the fact that the three are different languages, and while there are differing terms coined for each of the languages in their own vernaculars, then this is what should be represented. Wikipedia is about providing information, not conjecture, opinion, revisionism etc. T'eh shen jerrey lesh my resoonaght mychione enmyn er ny chengaghyn Gaelgagh. Ta mee hene credjal dy vel jarroo-raa yn Unnaneys Oarpagh ny yarroo-raa share da ny Gaeil - t'eh shen Unnaneaght ayns Neuchaslid. Tree chengaghyn, tree cultooryn, tree shennaghyssyn, tree cheeraghyn, agh un ghoo. Myrane lesh cullee Vannin, y tree cassyn! --MacTire02 00:48, 8 Mee Houney 2009 (UTC)